Building my 3rd HTPC – Looking for advice

[JonDeutsch]

Hi there,

I’ve been an avid HTPC/DVR guy for over a decade, and my sensibilities around the HTPC is that it is not a PC, but rather a super-awesome set-top box that happens to be powered by PC components and operating systems.

With that, I’m ready to build my 3rd HTPC!  I use Windows Media Center as my HTOS (even though I find it incredibly lacking in internet media streaming and management).  

I have developed my shopping list, and honestly, I think I might be over-spending and over-building.   I get this sense because my current HTPC is about 3 years old and runs everything fine (except for the occasional and unexplainable delays in picture playback), but I also want this new box to withstand a Win8 upgrade, as well as potential alternative HTOSs that might compete with WMC in the coming years.

Notes:

• I’m upgrading because my current HTPC has become unreliable (RAM keeps getting corrupt)
• I have 2 extenders
• I have a Windows Home Server that hosts a lot of archived TV shows as well as all of my movies
• I have an A/V cabinet that struggles to hold chassis deeper than 16″ comfortably
• I want a no-compromise user experience.  I want it to be sturdy, reliable, and responsive at all times.  I also want it to be very quiet.

OK, enough background, here’s my shopping list.  Please advise!  thanks.

• Intel BOXDH67BLB3 LGA 1155  Micro ATX Motherboard
• Intel Core i5-2500K Quad-Core Processor 
• SILVERSTONE GRANDIA GD04B Micro ATX Media Case
• SeaSonic X Series X650 Gold Power Supply
• Ceton InfiniTV 4 Quad-tuner Card 
• Intel 320 Series SSDSA2CW080G310 2.5″ 80GB SSD
• Western Digital Caviar Green WD20EARX 2TB SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5″ Bare Drive
• ASUS Black Blu-ray Drive BC-12B1ST/BLK/B/AS 

It ends up being about $1000, which feels like too much in this day in age for an HTPC.

Thoughts?  I haven’t been keeping up much with CPUs and stuff so I’m not sure how critical Sandy Bridge technology is to things vs. a lower-cost AMD system.  I prefer low-power/low-heat solutions for obvious reasons, but I do not want to compromise HTPC performance at any turn.  This unit will do nothing else but HTPC duties (I hope!).  

I’ve also read mixed reviews on the importance of an SSD boot drive.  Seems like a luxury at best, and perhaps not even one that makes a big difference.  I would like fast boot/re-boot response, though, like a set-top-box.

I’m even open to a re-thinking architecturally — like a tiny box that’s just a head unit with high-speed access to external drives (like the drives on my home server).  The thing is, I don’t want delays in transport response, and I want very fast thumbnail creation for my music and video libraries.

Any info appreciated.  Thanks in advance for any insights!  

Jon

 

[RehabMan]

You could save some money going with an i3 instead of the i5, unless you have some specific use for the additional CPU abilities (ie. you plan to do a lot of transcoding, commercial skipping, etc.).  The Sandy Bridge i3 chips… and even to some extent the Sandy Bridge Pentiums are more than capable of normal HTPC duties.

The SSD is definitely a luxury, but it is likely a luxury that you’ll like… a lot.  You might look at some of the OCZ drives, unless you’re stuck on going with Intel.  The Sandforce based Vertex II drives have worked out pretty well for me so far (I also had an Indilynx based Vertex drive that went belly up less than a year — it was replaced on warranty though and is still running fine).

You definitely do not need a 650w power supply.  I’m running 350w Seasonics in a couple of HTPCs and a 400w fanless Seasonic in my main HTPC.  All are still overkill.

When you take out the cost of the Ceton ($300 at newegg.com) you’re down to $700.  Not that I’m suggesting not having the Ceton card… just that it is the most expensive component of the HTPC and makes comparing your cost for the HTPC against what “computers normally cost” difficult.  You’d save about $100 going with an i3 so now you’re down to $600.  The SSD is a $180 luxury, so now you’re down to $420… which is pretty low for a pretty nice PC.

Oh… you’ll need some RAM.

 

[RehabMan]

… and you’ll need a Windows 7 license.

[swoon]

Hi Jon,

Your choice of motherboard is excellent (I have four of them myself). Especially since you use networking features to communicate with your WHS and potentially networking your InfiniTV, the importance of having a quality NIC like that in the DH67BL can’t be stressed enough. On the surface, it may appear that AMD is cheaper, but buy an add-in NIC and you’ve negated much of the price advantage not to mention lost an expansion slot and potentially limited your chassis choice.

Do you really need the power of the i5-2500k in your HTPC? If you won’t be doing commercial skipping or other CPU-intense activity, then you don’t need that much CPU. An i3-2100 should be plenty without compromising performance.

The SeaSonic supply is excellent, but you don’t need nearly that much wattage unless you’ll be using multiple higher-end gaming-caliber GPUs. It is also going to waste power for your config. Power supply efficiency drops dramatically when load is less than 20%. I recommend you look for something more in the 300 – 400W range. If you want to stick with SeaSonic, take a look at the S12II 380B. You’ll also save quite a bit.

Intel is a fine choice for SSD. If you want to cut off $50 (or more), check out the 96GB Kingston V+100 SSD. For HTPC use especially, the performance increases of the more expensive SSDs are not going to be all that noticeable. This model often goes on sale (as you can see from our Hot Deals forum). I use this model for my HTPC with the i3-2100 and DH67BL and I am very happy with it. Boot times are MUCH faster than powering on a cable STB from the off state which measure into the minutes. It is true that SSD is a luxury. It helps with system responsiveness. There is a noticeable improvement when opening guide, accessing anything database related like a movie library, recorded TV history, schedule, etc. I won’t build another HTPC or desktop without one.

The HDD should be fine. If you are doing commercial skip analysis, you should consider a 7200 RPM model.

Unless you have some non-low-profile expansion cards, you may want to consider a low-profile chassis and also one that will allow internal IR.

You didn’t mention DRAM. It is so cheap right now, you should buy 8GB and at minimum 4GB since you are using two extenders.

[JonDeutsch]

Hi RehabMan,

Thanks much for the detailed response.  So, I haven’t done any commercial skipping software to-date, but that’s mostly due to a concern of earlier reports of such tools missing the cues and deleting whole segments of shows.   As I do not want any errors like that, I’m still in the mode of skipping forward through commercials.  If those problems are behind us, then perhaps I should be looking into such software.

If I do, is the Core i5 significantly superior to the i3?

re: SSD.  So, I’ve been reading up on them (it’s all rather new to me), and it seems like the Intels experience the least problems/errors/return rates.  I was a bit freaked out by the more recent OCZ feedback on NewEgg, where a lot of people recently were losing their data!    So, the Intel is significantly more expensive, what I do not want is an unreliable HTPC.  It needs to “just work” for 3-5 years.  Just like an STB.   With that, does that change your recommendation?  Or am I over-reacting to a string of feedback on NewEgg?

re: PSU.  Thanks.  I have completely lost track of what’s needed for the new breed of CPUs and cards.  If you have a specific model # that you recommend that is very quiet and modular (apparently, that Silverstone chassis really works well with modular PSUs), that would be greatly appreciated.

re: RAM.  Oh yeah.  8GB DDR3 RAM is about $50. Need to get that onto the list!  

[quote=RehabMan]

You could save some money going with an i3 instead of the i5, unless you have some specific use for the additional CPU abilities (ie. you plan to do a lot of transcoding, commercial skipping, etc.).  The Sandy Bridge i3 chips… and even to some extent the Sandy Bridge Pentiums are more than capable of normal HTPC duties.

The SSD is definitely a luxury, but it is likely a luxury that you’ll like… a lot.  You might look at some of the OCZ drives, unless you’re stuck on going with Intel.  The Sandforce based Vertex II drives have worked out pretty well for me so far (I also had an Indilynx based Vertex drive that went belly up less than a year — it was replaced on warranty though and is still running fine).

You definitely do not need a 650w power supply.  I’m running 350w Seasonics in a couple of HTPCs and a 400w fanless Seasonic in my main HTPC.  All are still overkill.

When you take out the cost of the Ceton ($300 at newegg.com) you’re down to $700.  Not that I’m suggesting not having the Ceton card… just that it is the most expensive component of the HTPC and makes comparing your cost for the HTPC against what “computers normally cost” difficult.  You’d save about $100 going with an i3 so now you’re down to $600.  The SSD is a $180 luxury, so now you’re down to $420… which is pretty low for a pretty nice PC.

Oh… you’ll need some RAM.

 

[/quote]

[JonDeutsch]

Hi Swoon,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.  Much appreciated.

You make a compelling case for the SSD.  I think I will go that direction, especially if the guide pops up faster.  My guide delay today drives me nuts.  However, as mentioned above, I’m very concerned about reliability.  From the stats I could gather, Intel is one of the most reliable.  I’m not an Intel fanboy.  I’m a value fanboy. 🙂  But I do not want to substitute value for long-term reliability.   Esp. on a boot drive.  What a hassle to recover from a crashed boot drive!   Any thoughts on this?

Now there are two well-informed people telling me that I can cool down and get an i3 and a lower watt PSU.  That’d be great.  Thanks for the model # recommendation.  I’m not  driven by SeaSonic as much as I’m driven by quietness and reliability.  So any other recommendations for PSUs would be appreciated.

I am also frankly struggling with the chassis decision.  I’d prefer a lower-profile case that only accepts low-profile PCI/e cards.  However, I’m not entirely sure if my existing Aver780 ClearQAM PCI card is low profile or not, and I’m not sure if I want a high quality audio card in the future (like an Auzentech) would be low-profile or not.  I’m just not that in touch with the intricacies of these components, or how accurately they are labeled when it comes to low profile or not.  

Why would I want to keep my Aver780?  Primarily because I want FM radio support. And it looks like the only way to keep FM radio support is to do it via one of these ATSC/ClearQAM cards.  Right?

Thanks!

[quote=swoon]

Hi Jon,

Your choice of motherboard is excellent (I have four of them myself). Especially since you use networking features to communicate with your WHS and potentially networking your InfiniTV, the importance of having a quality NIC like that in the DH67BL can’t be stressed enough. On the surface, it may appear that AMD is cheaper, but buy an add-in NIC and you’ve negated much of the price advantage not to mention lost an expansion slot and potentially limited your chassis choice.

Do you really need the power of the i5-2500k in your HTPC? If you won’t be doing commercial skipping or other CPU-intense activity, then you don’t need that much CPU. An i3-2100 should be plenty without compromising performance.

The SeaSonic supply is excellent, but you don’t need nearly that much wattage unless you’ll be using multiple higher-end gaming-caliber GPUs. It is also going to waste power for your config. Power supply efficiency drops dramatically when load is less than 20%. I recommend you look for something more in the 300 – 400W range. If you want to stick with SeaSonic, take a look at the S12II 380B. You’ll also save quite a bit.

Intel is a fine choice for SSD. If you want to cut off $50 (or more), check out the 96GB Kingston V+100 SSD. For HTPC use especially, the performance increases of the more expensive SSDs are not going to be all that noticeable. This model often goes on sale (as you can see from our Hot Deals forum). I use this model for my HTPC with the i3-2100 and DH67BL and I am very happy with it. Boot times are MUCH faster than powering on a cable STB from the off state which measure into the minutes. It is true that SSD is a luxury. It helps with system responsiveness. There is a noticeable improvement when opening guide, accessing anything database related like a movie library, recorded TV history, schedule, etc. I won’t build another HTPC or desktop without one.

The HDD should be fine. If you are doing commercial skip analysis, you should consider a 7200 RPM model.

Unless you have some non-low-profile expansion cards, you may want to consider a low-profile chassis and also one that will allow internal IR.

You didn’t mention DRAM. It is so cheap right now, you should buy 8GB and at minimum 4GB since you are using two extenders.

[/quote]

[swoon]

Similar to HDD, SSDs also have issues. From my experience, they either work without issue or don’t work. I have the 96GB Kingston V+100 in addition to a G. Skill Phoenix Pro 120GB and an OCZ Vertex 2 120GB. I have had no issues whatsoever with the Kingston or the G. Skill. I had to RMA twice the OCZ in order to get one that worked without issue. Even Intel has had issues with their 320 model that you are looking at.

In general, I expect SSD to have a much more reliable and longer lifespan than HDD though there isn’t a whole lot of hard evidence yet since commercial markets have just started using SSDs in increasing numbers. They are just NAND “Flash” memory which has been around for a long time and is in many products both in consumer and commercial markets. There are sometimes issues that have cropped up with SSDs though in practice, it seems no different than HDD issues we have seen and manufacturers do seem to be responsive in correcting issues either by issuing new firmware or replacing the drives. Whether you go for SSD or HDD, backup and be safe. Always expect the next failure.

Also, contrary to much of what you might read or hear about having to “tune” for SSDs, if you’re running Windows 7, there’s not much that really has to be done. If you install Win7 on the SSD from the start (make sure drive has latest firmware), it should recognize the drive as an SSD, enable TRIM, turn off defrag, etc. (run WEI and check if you want to be sure). With any modern SSD and Win7 it’s not necessary to disable page file, move a bunch of OS stuff off the SSD, etc.

Your AVerMedia M780 is a low-profile card according to the linked datasheet. You’ll just need to dig out the bracket that came with it.

[RehabMan]

As far as PSU recs… I’ve had good luck with Seasonic and tend to stick with them.  I tend to limit myself to those that are either fanless or with 12cm fan.  I have two HTPCs (on in guest house, one in garage) where I wanted to save some money and went with the SS-350ET, http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151077.  Not modular but has 12cm fan… hard to find modular in the lower priced, lower wattage.  For my main HTPC, I bucked up and purchased the SS-400FL, which is fanless, modular, and of course, expensive.

re SSD… Other than the sudden failure of the first-gen OCZ Vertex, I’ve had good luck with the OCZ drives.  Just don’t try to run them in a RAID0 config.  You lose trim, and there are issues with sleep in an Intel RAID0 config.  I did that for a while on my dev machine and eventually got tired of it…  I see you have a Windows Home Server and so do I.  To tell you the truth, because of the reliable backup system in WHS, I don’t worry about hardware failures that much.  And… Intel has had their share of trouble with their SSD drives too (I seem to recall their drives suddenly failing and reporting only 8MB or storage available — think that was a firmware issue that they later corrected).  SSD is new tech… no getting around it… there will always be problems when you’re on the bleeding edge of tech.  Well worth it if you have a good backup strategy (which is just smart anyway).

As far as CPU performance, that i5-2500k is getting you almost double the performance (according to the charts at passmark.com) of an i3-2100.  But it may be a bit more difficult to keep cool/quiet than a lower wattage i3.  I’m using the i3-2100T with a Skythe Big Shuriken cooler, and my HTPC is silent unless you get your ear about 12″ away.  From the couch, silent…  Performance is more than adequate, but I don’t do any commercial skip stuff (for some of the same reasons you mention).

[JonDeutsch]

Any thoughts on how much space a boot drive should really have?  64GB SSDs seem popular enough, but how much does Win7 want/desire without having to have to deal with space management?

And… when Win8 arrives, I want to make sure that my system is ready (including boot drive space) to safely handle the future.  

I think the i3 makes sense from the low-wattage perspective, and I think you both have convinced me to save some money and wattage and go with an i3.  My only concern is that I keep hearing that commercial skip apps desire an i5.  And what about other WMC apps?  Like MyMovies and MediaBrowser.  Would they perform better with that quad-core CPU power?   Or is the i3 all you really need, including all extended WMC functionality?

Thanks,

Jon

[swoon]

I do not recommend lower than a 60GB OS drive. When Service Packs come down, it is handy to have the space. You also want room for any programs you might install. As far as Win8 goes, we’ve been told it will not require more resources than Windows 7.

The reason why you will see recommendations to use an i5 for commercial skip analysis is because of it’s CPU intense nature. With the i3, you’ll probably want to limit the cores used to one so that you have a free core to handle other duties. With the i5, you can dedicate more cores to the process to get the jobs done faster.

You will see minimal or no difference in performance with MyMovies and MediaBrowser.

[JonDeutsch]

OK, based on this conversation, I’ve updated my shopping list:

• SILVERSTONE GRANDIA GD04B 
• Intel BOXDH67BLB3 LGA 1155 Intel H67 Mobo
• Ceton InfiniTV 4 Quad-tuner Card 
• SeaSonic X series SS-400FL Active PFC F3 400W ATX12V Fanless 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Modular 
• Intel Core i3-2105 Sandy Bridge 3.1GHz LGA 1155 65W Dual-Core 
• Crucial M4 CT064M4SSD2 2.5″ 64GB SATA III MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD)
• G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666)
• Western Digital Caviar Green WD20EARX 2TB SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5″
• ASUS Black Blu-ray Drive SATA Model BC-12B1ST/BLK/B/AS – OEM
• GELID Solutions FN-PX12-15 120mm Case Fan with Intelligent PWM control
• SILVERSTONE NT01-E 2 x 60mm fans (optional) CPU Cooler

 

My hesitations include:

• Going i3 vs. i5, but the lower wattage allows for items like the NT01-E to work (it requires 65W or less CPU).
• Having only 64GB as a boot drive (presuming SATA III would be better than SATA II for SSD?)
• 5200 RPM Green drive.  But at 6gb/sec throughput, does that at all mitigate “INTELLIPOWER”?
• Fanless PSU – would that create airflow issues with the Silverstone case?

Any thoughts/opinions appreciated.  Thx. 

[swoon]

There’s really little reason to pay extra for the i3-2105 over the i3-2100. Yes, it has HD Graphics 3000 vs. 2000, but unless you’re gaming, it won’t change your experience. If you are gaming, the 3000 graphics will likely not be too satisfying.

Sure, a Gen. 3 SATA III SSD is better to have, I don’t think you’ll notice much difference in practice with an HTPC. The big jump is really going from a HDD to an SSD in the first place.

SATA III isn’t going to have any meaningful effect on power consumption.

The case should have plenty of airflow. You should ask yourself though if going fanless for your PSU is truly worth the price. The 380W S12II is MUCH less expensive ($75 vs. $130) and uses a large 120mm fan although it is not modular. I have the 330W version (no longer sold) and I can’t hear it over other fans. Your system noise is all going to come down to what is the loudest component in the system and how high it is above the noise floor of your room. Don’t get me wrong, I would love the supply myself, but it may not really make a difference for you.

[JonDeutsch]

Hi Aaron,

Thanks for the reply.  I read on a few boards that the HD 2000 made WMC’s interface choppy at times.  That scared me away from that chip.  

re: SATA III HD… I was wondering more about if SATA III @ 5200RPM would be equiv speed of a SATA II @7200RPM.   Also, wondering if “intellipower” is truly 5200RPM or is it truly variable?

In the reviews of the chassis, they highly recommend a modular PSU, which is why I keep on trying to lock that part of things in place.  But I agree there’s a big savings there if I could feel comfy with non-modular with the Silverstone.

 

[RehabMan]

There is pretty much no benefit to SATA III hard-drives.  It is a marketing thing.  Hard-drives are nowhere near saturating the SATA II bus, let alone SATA III.  Maybe in a very busy RAID0 config or busy multi-disk config with lots of simultaneous  access… but not in an HTPC I don’t think.

The latest gen of SSDs do benefit and the last gen of SSDs should have benefited if the SSDs were in RAID0 but that’s about it.

Modular PSUs are a give and take.  On the one hand you have less unused cables running about, but on the other the plugs into the PSU generally take up more room so if your case is tight (mine was) it is kind of a wash.  I kinda wish Seasonic had some fanless, non-modular power supplies.  Or just PSUs that were a bit more shallow (an extra inch to spare between the PSU and OD would have been nice in my Vidabox vCase3).

[swoon]

I have personally not experienced choppiness with 7MC using the i3-2100 running 1080p in my primary HTPC. As far as using the 7MC UI, my experience has been identical whether using the 2000, 3000 or even a much more powerful GPU.

Modular and fanless are both great features, you’ll just need to assign a value to them.

[Author]

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