Media Center Vs Tivo On Engadget

[robinhoody]

I thought this was a pretty good article by Engadget.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/05/tivo-premiere-vs-windows-7-media-center/

[Mike Garcen]

so did Matt 🙂

http://www.missingremote.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5076&Itemid=2

[captain_video]

I’ve been a long time Tivo user and just recently started using Win 7 Media Center.  I had been using XP Pro and BeyondTV 4 for my OTA DVR chores as well as watching various types of video clips, DVDs, and Blu-Ray rips stored on an unRAID server.  With the (hopefully) upcoming arrival of my Ceton tuner I will finally be retiring my Tivos after a 10+ year association.

I didn’t read through the full laundry list of advantages for each setup on Engadget, but I do take exception when they call it a tie with regards to storage space.  They indicated that either platform can be upgraded to as much storage as you want.  They obviously did not do their homework in this area or they would know that Tivo has a limit on the size of the hard drives they can use.  You’re also limited to the internal drive plus an add-on external drive.  I could easily set up a shared folder on my 18TB unRAID server for use with the DVR function in Win 7 MC.  I still have lots of room for expansion should I ever decide to upgrade it further.

I don’t recall reading the cost advantages of a Media Center PC vs. a Tivo in the article.  Had the author actually done such a comparison he would have quickly realized that a Media Center PC with a Ceton card is an absolute steal in comparison.  The only monthly fees attached are for a single cablecard.  You’d need two Tivo Premieres with two cablecards and Tivo service agreements for both Tivos, which could easily meet or exceed the hardware costs of a topnotch Media Center PC.  If you add in the capability to play DVDs and Blu-Rays, then the HTPC wins hands-down.

I love my Tivos, but I won’t miss the expense of owning them.

[jennyfur]

[quote=”shadymg”]
so did Matt 🙂 [/quote]
So did I, retweeted it from engadget’s site right after it was posted 😉

[quote=”captain_video”]
I don’t recall reading the cost advantages of a Media Center PC vs. a Tivo in the article.  Had the author actually done such a comparison he would have quickly realized that a Media Center PC with a Ceton card is an absolute steal in comparison.  The only monthly fees attached are for a single cablecard.  You’d need two Tivo Premieres with two cablecards and Tivo service agreements for both Tivos, which could easily meet or exceed the hardware costs of a topnotch Media Center PC.
[/quote]
The cost comparison is in the article’s conclusion. However the author compares only one Tivo Premiere (with a lifetime subscription, so no monthly fees) to a Media Center PC w/cablecard so it’s a much closer race with no clear winner.

One advantage listed in Tivo’s favor is wrong however:

[quote=”engadget”]TiVo rewinds a bit after you fast forward to compensate for your reaction time.[/quote]

… so does media center. Perhaps it’s not as big a jump as Tivo’s though, and that’s why it was overlooked.

[captain_video]

[quote=”jennyfur”]
The cost comparison is in the article’s conclusion. However the author compares only one Tivo Premiere (with a lifetime subscription, so no monthly fees) to a Media Center PC w/cablecard so it’s a much closer race with no clear winner. [/quote]
I must have missed that the first time through.  The cost comparison is still way off base because it only compares a single Tivo Premiere with lifetime vs. a Media Center PC with cablecard.  It would take two Tivo Premieres with lifetime to create a fair comparison since the Ceton tuner has four tuners vs. only two for a Tivo Premiere.  That clearly puts the HTPC in the winner’s circle, IMHO.

[jennyfur]

[quote=”captain_video”]The cost comparison is still way off base because it only compares a single Tivo Premiere with lifetime vs. a Media Center PC with cablecard.  It would take two Tivo Premieres with lifetime to create a fair comparison since the Ceton tuner has four tuners vs. only two for a Tivo Premiere. [/quote]

A more accurate comparison would be a 2 tuner cablecard Media Center PC, which would likely still win over the Tivo. I think the HDHomeRun Prime was originally rumored to only have 2 back at CES, but now it has 3 so it can’t be used as a fair comparison anymore. But I really don’t think comparing two Tivo Premieres to any one PC is fair either.

Personally, I’m more interested in the HDHR because the Ceton is just overkill for me. I don’t need that many tuners, and can’t justify spending a whopping $400.

[George L. Schmauch Jr.]

Perhaps Tivo has gotten better since my last foray into that realm with the DirecTivo, but I found the reliability to be lacking… from a hardware standpoint.  I found this with the DirecTivo, as well as the standalone models.  The software was pretty darn solid, but between hard drive failures, power supply failures (overheating?), and card readers failing, the Tivo hardware was a major issue for me over the years.  That was the #2 reason (right behind DRM) why I built my own HTPC, followed shortly afterward by the server.

I do find it a little surprising that the same day they posted that comparison they also posted a poll about the [url=http://hd.engadget.com/2010/08/08/poll-whats-the-most-important-feature-in-a-hd-dvr/]”most important feature” for a DVR[/url] and the only thing they assumed was “connected to an HDTV” and listed “reliability” as an “extra feature”.  How is that “extra”?!?!  I don’t care how great everything else is if the thing can’t reliably record and play back my shows!

[captain_video]

I’ve owned several dozen Tivos over the past 10 years and I think I only had one hard drive failure in all that time.  I’ve also never had a power supply failure or card reader issue.

The series 1 DirecTivos did suffer from power supply failures, but it was still only on a small percentage of units.  The same models had some hard drive failures, but the heat buildup inside these units was higher than usual which probably hastened the failure rates.

That being said, you can’t really blame Tivo for hard drive failures as they can just as easily occur in a PC as a Tivo (i.e., Tivo didn’t manufacture the hard drives).  Power supply failures on later models could usually be isolated to a bad electrolytic capacitor on later models (easily diagnosed by a visual inspection).  A pencil eraser could usually cure card reader problems by cleaning the contacts on the card.

Overalll, I found the Tivo hardware to be extremely reliable.  It was the only DVR platform that could be hacked as well as upgraded with larger hard drives (and it still holds that advantage over any other commercially available DVR).  ReplayTVs and Ultimate TVs could be upgraded with larger hard drives as could the Dish 501 PVR, although the Dish required a JTAG and some serious hacking skills and was extremely limited in the specific drives that could be used for the upgrade. 

ReplayTVs could be upgraded with just about any IDE drive.  The Ultimate TVs also had some drive limitations, but nowhere near as stringent as the Dish 501.  The Tivos and early Dish DVRs were also the only ones that allowed you to extract recorded programs to your PC.  The Tivo required hacking to enable this but the Dish drive had to be physically removed and installed in the PC to perform the task.

Many other DVRs have come and gone but the Tivo has persevered.  Aside from the DVRs supplied by the cable and DSS providers, they are about the only game left in town other than an HTPC and a Moxi.

[George L. Schmauch Jr.]

[quote=”captain_video”]
I’ve owned several dozen Tivos over the past 10 years and I think I only had one hard drive failure in all that time.  I’ve also never had a power supply failure or card reader issue.

The series 1 DirecTivos did suffer from power supply failures, but it was still only on a small percentage of units.  The same models had some hard drive failures, but the heat buildup inside these units was higher than usual which probably hastened the failure rates.[/quote]

I guess I’m really unlucky then, since I had 4 power supplies go in my units over the years and also 3 card readers.  Mind you, my cards were never removed until the reader stopped working.

[quote]That being said, you can’t really blame Tivo for hard drive failures as they can just as easily occur in a PC as a Tivo (i.e., Tivo didn’t manufacture the hard drives).  Power supply failures on later models could usually be isolated to a bad electrolytic capacitor on later models (easily diagnosed by a visual inspection).  A pencil eraser could usually cure card reader problems by cleaning the contacts on the card.[/quote]

I can take exception to their choice in drives and their–in my experience–high failure rate, though.  They may not have made the drives, but they did choose the manufacturer.  Perhaps the faulty power supplies were even killing the drives.  Who knows…

[quote]Overalll, I found the Tivo hardware to be extremely reliable.[/quote]

Either you’re really lucky or I’m very unlucky.  As I said previously, with the amount of time and money being spent on repairing my Tivo units, the lost TV shows, the missed recordings, and the aggravation, I quickly realized that building my own HTPC with quality hardware would cost me LESS money.  I even drew up a spreadsheet with the costs over the years and expected failures, then compared that to newer Tivo units, DirecTV DVRs, switching to cable, and an HTPC setup.  SageTV won handily and I don’t have a single regret about the path I chose.

[captain_video]

Sorry that you had such bad luck with your Tivos.  I do consider myself lucky, especially when reading some of the horror stories people posted on Tivo forums.  I was always amazed that people were having such bad luck when all of my Tivos were humming along just fine.  Then again, how often do you see people rave about a product vs. giving it a bad rap when things start going south?  I hacked every Tivo I ever owned, and that included updating the software with patches as well as adding more storage.  I don’t know if that had any bearing on their lifespan, but you never know.

Tivo actually had several different hard drive manufacturers that they used for their products.  The original Tivos used Quantum drives which were eventually supplanted with Maxtor and Western Digitals.  It all depended on what they had on hand when your particular Tivo was being built.

Perhaps the fact that I replaced most of the OEM drives with bigger drives had something to do with my higher success rate.  Then again, many of the Tivos I upgraded simply included the addition of a 2nd drive along with the original drive and they all worked perfectly for years.  I used a UPS that had voltage regulation with all of my Tivos, which no doubt was beneficial to their longevity.  It could be a reason why your Tivos had so many power supply failures. 

If you live in an area that suffers from wide variations in line voltages or a lot of voltage spikes then the Tivo power supplies probably fell victim to your power company more than any manufacturing issues.  It could also account for your high rate of card reader failures.  I learned a long time ago that having stable line voltage is about the best thing you can do for your A/V electronics.

It seemed that most people that had bad luck with Tivos always had multiple issues with more than one unit, like they were being singled out to get the lemons.

[George L. Schmauch Jr.]

To be completely fair, I do have to admit that I had some memory in my HTPC go bad due to–what I assume to have been–power surges in my house.  That went away after I put the HTPC on a UPS.  So, while we can’t prove it, you may very well be on to something there.

I did like the Tivo when it was working, though, as did the wife.  Their interface was perfect back then.  Looking back, I’m still glad I went the SageTV route, though.  I like the control I have over everything and the expansion capability much more than the Tivo interface was worth to me.

[Author]

Posts