SageTV Vs. MCE

[umdivx]

So with the news of Google purchasing SageTV and all the SageTV vs. MCE battles going on in the comments I figured it’d be good to start a new thread, clear the air, gets the facts down, and have a good old debate of sorts.

[quote]here, sadly, are MCE/WMC (pick ONE name, will ya?!) fanboys[/quote]

You forgot one… 7MC 😉 and “technically” they are all correct in one way shape or form. Windows

Media Center Edition 2005 or just Windows Media Center (never personally have liked WMC acronym).

Then there is VMC, Vista Media Center. Finally 7MC. Windows 7 Media Center.

I wouldn’t say I’m a “fanboy”, just an enthused enthusiasts 😉 but in all seriousness there is some FUD on both sides of the table here and I’d like to start clearing some of that up. So starting a new thread, don’t want it to be a debate, just straight facts, and only facts. Don’t want this to be a whole new SageTV Vs. MCE/WMC/VMC/7MC all over again.

[quote] First and foremost, as a DirecTV subscriber, there’s absolutely no way for me to even use WMC/MCE[/quote]

How so? MCE can and does support the HD-PVR just like SageTV does.

http://www.hauppauge.com/site/support/support_hdpvr.html

[quote] With WMC/MCE, can I buy PPV events and keep them for more than 24 hours?[/quote]

Not sure, I truly don’t know, assuming if you have the HDPVR and MCE yes, but again I truly don’t know so someone can fill in the blanks here, how does SageTV work?

[quote] Can my family copy off TV shows when someone goes on a business trip or vacation? [/quote]

Actually yes it can, and I do it quite often. I have a Western Digital Live TV Hub,

http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=570 and I offload recorded tv to it every weekend

I head up to my family cabin. I also offload recorded tv shows to my ipad and play back with CineXPlayer. The caveat is that any copy protected content (which in my case is extremely few and far between) won’t transfer over.

[quote] When I rebuild the server, can all my recordings be put back on it and played back? [/quote]

yes they can, and its well documented everywhere. Again if they are copy protected you are SOL but again in the 6+ years of using MCE, 20+ rebuilds of some shape or form have taken place and not once was I able to not play it back again after the rebuild.

[quote] Do I need to manage all my recording directories myself? [/quote]

Not really sure what is being asked/stated here. Are you saying that every single MCE user “must” manage where your TV shows are recorded to? Sure you pick a “default” location, its always been that way, its not Dynamic based on multiple selected directories sure, but with the vast size of hard drives these days is it really needed? The ONLY reason SageTV, MythTV and others have it was because of the smallish sized hard drives back in the day and how fast they filled up. I have 2TB drive as my recording drive, and not once have I come close to filling that up. Now when we had 500gig HDD’s back in the day now I could see why there was a dynamic recording location ability.

[quote]Do I need to copy all my shows over to my server after they’re recorded?[/quote]

Nor do I, or anyone else running MCE. Its just an option we prefer to take advantage of.

[quote] Do I need to worry about accidental (?) broadcast flag utilization? [/quote]

Now this is probably the ONLY legitimate concern of all the points made so far. In all the years I’ve been using MCE, this is the ONLY issue/complaint I’ve had. However I’ve resolved it with cable card tuner and using HDMI video. For some reason when I had NTSC tuners, with straight analog cable into my HTPC my wife would be using our system and on odd channels like AE, or WE and she’d be watching a movie on one of those channels (and only those channels) she’d get an error msg every once in a while with a broadcast flag stating she couldn’t watch the movie. That happened back in MCE 2005 and Vista days. Now that I am on 7MC with a Ceton tuner I have yet to see the issue again.

[quote]I am more concerned with reliability than with style.[/quote]

Same here. Which is why I use MCE. I NEVER and I mean NEVER have issues with MCE failing.

[quote]the Xbox works well, but is not totally silent (especially if you have the old model)[/quote]

The new slim models are virtually silent as well. Much of the noise of an old xbox is actually the power supply itself. The big as brick power cord there’s a high pitched fast fan that is loud as hell.

So now let me counter with some questions of my own….

1.) When or if your SageTV server fails, and your database goes in the shitter how do you reload your meta data for your tv shows? MCE all the meta data is built into the recorded tv file itself, not reliant on a database or external source outside of the file.

2.) When you say “easy to setup” do you still have to install codecs/decoders for playback? Have to have an understanding of what a codec even is? You don’t in MCE.

3.) How easy is it to install a plugin or third party app for Sage? Its been a while so that is why I am asking, the last time I looked into it, you had to understand where files when, and unpack them in multiple directories and such. Wasn’t intuitive at all.

4.) How many step process, from out of the box (or download) to installation, to up and running and recording and watching tv is it for SageTV? How long is that process? In MCE open up the app, go through a automated menu, plug in your zip and your carrier and you are off and recording and watching tv in less than 10 minutes from start to finish.

So lets try (as much as we can) to keep it clean, and have an actual debate, with FACTS and if you don’t know it, admit it and ask questions.

-Josh

[farscapesg1]

I’m sure others can provide more detailed information but I thought I would chime in 😉

1) With previous versions (v6 and before) the metadata was contained in the wiz.bin file I believe.  So the key was to backup your config files on a regular basis.  I haven’t made the move to v7 yet, but my understanding (which could be wrong) is that they changed this to incorporate the metadata into the recording files themselves.

2) When using extenders, no codecs are required.  You just installed the SageTV server software on one system (in my case a plugin for WHS) and the extenders do all the playback functions.  This is as close to the Media Center configuration as possible.  If comparing apples to oranges (Media Center with xBox extenders vs SageTV with PC clients), then yes you have to install codecs on the client PCs to play back files.  At least back in the XP days.  I’ve never set up a SageTV client using Windows 7, which if it can natively playback media in Media player, it should be able to do the same with the SageTV client… i would assume 😉

3) Plugins used to be a hassle for SageTV prior to version 7.  You are correct that you usually had to extract them to the proper folders, then configure settings.  With v7 they introduced a plugin repository that could download and install them automatically.  There are a few that still require making changes to a couple files, or making configuration changes in the GUI, but they made huge advancements in the process with v7.

4) For the base installation, I can get SageTV set up within 10 minutes from the time I start the installation.  Customizing it might take a little longer, but that was one of the nice things about SageTV, it could be customized.  Want a different interface? check.  Want to include commercial detection/skipping? check.  Want to add checking email to the interface? check. Home automation? check.

Media Center has cablecard, which is a huge advantage in it’s favor IMO.  SageTV has recently been able to incorporate some cablecard via SageDCT, but it isn’t incorporated as well as Media Center.  You are also limited to the copy-freely flags in SageTV.  I’m really hoping the Google acquisition will alleviate some of that, but I don’t see it being on their radar since Google wants to provide their own TV, not an interface to watch TV from current cable/satallite providers.

Don’t get me wrong.  I think Media Center appeals to the “mass market” much more than SageTV by themselves could ever hope for.  To me, Media Center has always felt like a “gadget” added to Windows, and in the past has been treated sort of like the illigitimate son.  Just look at the slow acceptance of Media Center into the common “living room”.  It’s getting better with the xBox as an extender, but Microsoft just doesn’t seem to be pushing it that much.  I know several people with xBox’s that didn’t even know they could stream media from another computer to their TV’s with it

SageTV on the other hand has a “tool belt” feel in that you can add additional features/functions to it, which doing it’s primary job of recording TV.  The occasional guest that comes over and looks at my SageTV setup give a “hmm, that’s interesting” impression and move on.  Every babysitter/nanny that we’ve had (4 so far) that watched the kids every day during the week however have asked how I set it up and would love to have something similar. 

[umdivx]

[quote=farscapesg1]

I’m sure others can provide more detailed information but I thought I would chime in 😉

1) With previous versions (v6 and before) the metadata was contained in the wiz.bin file I believe.  So the key was to backup your config files on a regular basis.  I haven’t made the move to v7 yet, but my understanding (which could be wrong) is that they changed this to incorporate the metadata into the recording files themselves.[/quote]

Interesting would be curious on how that happens since most video file containers don’t support that, other than data and time stamps.

[quote]4) For the base installation, I can get SageTV set up within 10 minutes from the time I start the installation.  Customizing it might take a little longer, but that was one of the nice things about SageTV, it could be customized.  Want a different interface? check.  Want to include commercial detection/skipping? check.  Want to add checking email to the interface? check. Home automation? check.[/quote]

when you say check… you mean just a simple check box for setup? If so, I am assuming that is when you are running the WHS plugin/add-on.

Also curious on the home automation part. Does it tie into a control platform like mControl or Homeseer? Or is it completely different?

[quote]Don’t get me wrong.  I think Media Center appeals to the “mass market” much more than SageTV by themselves could ever hope for. [/quote]

That is like any other or ALL HTPC options combined. You’ll ALWAYS see more STB from {insert cable / sat provider name here} than you will ever see of HTPC’s, once we all get over that fact it isn’t about who’s is more widely used, or who’s more main stream, because frankly none of these solutions are, not even Media Center.

[quote]To me, Media Center has always felt like a “gadget” added to Windows, and in the past has been treated sort of like the illigitimate son.  Just look at the slow acceptance of Media Center into the common “living room”.  It’s getting better with the xBox as an extender, but Microsoft just doesn’t seem to be pushing it that much.  I know several people with xBox’s that didn’t even know they could stream media from another computer to their TV’s with it [/quote]

Again its not just Media Center, its the acceptance factor of having a computer control your TV or just the higher up front costs. I know my parents wouldn’t fork over the kind of money I did just to be able to watch and record tv like I do.

[quote]SageTV on the other hand has a “tool belt” feel in that you can add additional features/functions to it, which doing it’s primary job of recording TV.[/quote]

while Media Center is different, for me I still feel you can get that “tool belt” feel while still staying within the Media Center environment.

I am running Casa Tunes whole home audio system (see my review here) with full Media Center integration that I can also use my iPad and android phones to control it all. I am also running mControl home automation with full Media Center integration again with iPad and Android phone support.

I get media management with my Movies, commercial skipping with DVRMSToolbox. The ONLY thing I don’t get is ripped BD playback on my extenders.

But I get all the plugins, addons, and customization I want with full home integration that looks almost professional. I honestly just don’t get this “Media Center is sooo closed and not customizable” statement I hear as a reoccurring theme from folks.

-Josh

[farscapesg1]

Interesting.  Honestly it has been quite a while since I looked at Media Center in any format.  When I started with Sage it was back during the XP Media Center era where it just didn’t have the customizable options or features that I really wanted (centralized storage and client playback mainly).  By the time it evolved to it’s current state, I’d already invested in the SageTV server software, 2 client licenses, a couple Placeshifter licenses, and 2 extenders (increased to 4 by this point to replace client computers).  This isn’t Media Center’s fault, but the lack of direction from Microsoft that has plagued it until the decision to make XBox’s the default extenders.

Sorry if I didn’t make the customizing options for SageTV clear.  I was just saying that it was possible.  I didn’t realize that they had brought additinal options to Media Center now.  SageTV still requires you to install the Plugins for those features (HA is possible with various plugins, but not familiar enough with it to say which ones).

Does DVRMSToolbox handle automatic commercial detection and skipping as the files are being recorded, or do you have to wait until it finishes recording for it to be processed?

At this point, I’m heavily enough invested in SageTV to wait out the details of the purchase.  To switch now would require purchasing new XBOX Slims for each room (4), which may happen depending on how things turn out.  Or I might give up on the PVR scene and join the masses with a DVR from U-Verse. 

All I really want is something that allows me to watch anything I record on any TV or device that I own, as well as the media collection I have built up.  If Media Center gives me this now, great!  My concern is that right now my cable provider (Comcast) is not marking shows as copy-once but that could change at any time.  It would probably be easier to just switch to a DVR and use something like a Popcorn Hour or WDTV Live for stored media, then take a shot with buying more hardware that could be disabled by a simple copy protection flag.  Of course this is the same concern I’ve had with SageTV before the announcement and their lack of CableCard support, since Comcast is making it harder and harder to record and store what I want to watch.

Unfortunately, I don’t have the funds for a home theater retrofit anymore.  My SageTV setup was expanded as I went over the years and to replace it in one shot won’t be happening.  Bare minimum to switch would require 2 XBOX’s (living room and game room) with the bedrooms still using the SageTV extenders in “stand alone” mode.. which has a horrible interface 😉

[umdivx]

[quote=farscapesg1]Sorry if I didn’t make the customizing options for SageTV clear.  I was just saying that it was possible.  I didn’t realize that they had brought additinal options to Media Center now.  SageTV still requires you to install the Plugins for those features (HA is possible with various plugins, but not familiar enough with it to say which ones).[/quote]

Understandable, most of the “customizations” I run are third party plugins for tools for HA and whole home audio. Don’t really run much beyond that.

but yes you can’t really “customize” media center to the extent layout, nested folders for recorded tv or things of that nature.

[quote]Does DVRMSToolbox handle automatic commercial detection and skipping as the files are being recorded, or do you have to wait until it finishes recording for it to be processed?[/quote]

Yes it does. DVRMStoolbox + Show Analyzer does real time life detection and skipping.

[quote]

All I really want is something that allows me to watch anything I record on any TV or device that I own, as well as the media collection I have built up.[/quote]

TV part is easy with extenders, even copy protected stuff plays on extenders. It is when you try and offload the content (when copy protected like HBO shows) when you can’t watch them, but yes extenders playback copy protected content.

The media collection is a little bit tough, but still doable. Extenders play back M2TS files natively now, and i’ve been using a PS3 tool, MKV2VOB to convert my MKV’s to M2TS which works really slick and doesn’t re-encode, just re-containers the video files.

-Josh

[jennyfur]

[quote][quote]To me, Media Center has always felt like a “gadget” added to Windows, and in the past has been treated sort of like the illigitimate son.  Just look at the slow acceptance of Media Center into the common “living room”.  It’s getting better with the xBox as an extender, but Microsoft just doesn’t seem to be pushing it that much.  I know several people with xBox’s that didn’t even know they could stream media from another computer to their TV’s with it [/quote]

Again its not just Media Center, its the acceptance factor of having a computer control your TV or just the higher up front costs. I know my parents wouldn’t fork over the kind of money I did just to be able to watch and record tv like I do.[/quote]

Funny, the lack of up-front cost was a big part of why I went with windows media center. Over the years of being an HTPC enthusiast, it became increasingly cost prohibitive for me to maintain both a main computer and a separate HTPC. I’d already ditched cable TV. I realized that I could just save myself the trouble and let my main rig do double duty. 7MC was already part of my existing OS (so could be considered free of cost). The only true up front cost was for a tuner card and antenna, which combined only cost just slightly more than the lowest cable TV package I could buy would cost for one month. I also already owned an xbox, so there was no cost for extender capabilities.

[DFranch]

All my movies are in ISO format.  Media center can play them no problem.  However when using An Xbox as an extender the movies don’t play, they just give some vague video codec error.  I understand you can re-encode to just the main movie portion of the DVD and it will work, but then you lose the additional features.  I assume the same is true for Blue Ray, but haven’t tried it yet.

[babgvant]

[quote=farscapesg1]

1) With previous versions (v6 and before) the metadata was contained in the wiz.bin file I believe.  So the key was to backup your config files on a regular basis.  I haven’t made the move to v7 yet, but my understanding (which could be wrong) is that they changed this to incorporate the metadata into the recording files themselves.

[/quote]

This is correct.  In v7 metadata is stored at the end of recorded TV files as well as in wiz.bin.

[topperdude]

[quote=umdivx]

The media collection is a little bit tough, but still doable. Extenders play back M2TS files natively now, and i’ve been using a PS3 tool, MKV2VOB to convert my MKV’s to M2TS which works really slick and doesn’t re-encode, just re-containers the video files.

-Josh

[/quote]

 

By extenders, are you referring to the Xbox360 as being able to play M2TS files natively (streamed from an MCE server or from a NAS)? Is this specific to a specific operating system or can an extender do this with any version of MCE (WinXP, 7MC). Just want to confirm as many online forums seem to indicate M2TS would need to be converted to format supported by the Xbox260 (e.g. WMV).

Re SageTV vs MCE,  

One of the main advantages that I saw SageTV (and also NPVR/GB-PVR) provided was the ability to stream from a server to a client PC (I think in the MCE world this is/was referred to as SoftSled?) . Having one box in the living room (not counting the receiver ofcourse) is important to me due to space constraints. Such a setup would allow me to have a central SageTV server hosting all the tuners, HD-PVRs etc. While on the client side, I could have a single box that can not only be a SageTV client, streaming shared content, but also be able to do tasks independently of the server such as playback blu-ray movies from a local drive (for movies I dont want to necessarily archive or if I want to browse through any extras on the disc). I could also use it for other tasks such as surfing to websites, especially those with video content without having to worry about plugin support (think Silverlight on GoogleTV).

 

 

Ofcourse, now with the acquisition by GoogleTV and big question mark about long term existence of SageTV, not sure how feasible it would be to set up such a system. GB-PVR/NPVR is another option I am aware of that would do something like this but that takes a bit more effort setting up.

 

 

-Topper

 

 

 

[woodchuck]

All your base are belong to us!     Hahahahaha!!!!

[umdivx]

[quote=topperdude]By extenders, are you referring to the Xbox360 as being able to play M2TS files natively (streamed from an MCE server or from a NAS)?[/quote]

Correct. I can play back M2TS files on my xbox 360 through the media center interface.

 

[quote]Is this specific to a specific operating system or can an extender do this with any version of MCE (WinXP, 7MC).[/quote]

It very well could be. I am using Windows 7.

-Josh

[mikinho]

[quote=umdivx]

[quote=topperdude]By extenders, are you referring to the Xbox360 as being able to play M2TS files natively (streamed from an MCE server or from a NAS)?[/quote]

Correct. I can play back M2TS files on my xbox 360 through the media center interface.

[/quote]

I don’t believe this to be technically correct.  They are not being natively played.  They are being transcoded by the Media Foundation framework.

 

[quote=umdivx]

[quote]Is this specific to a specific operating system or can an extender do this with any version of MCE (WinXP, 7MC).[/quote]

 

It very well could be. I am using Windows 7.

-Josh

[/quote]

Media Foundation Transcoding is only available on W7.  In Vista you could play files by using T360 but it was not a very reliable solution.

[umdivx]

[quote=mikinho]

I don’t believe this to be technically correct.  They are not being natively played.  They are being transcoded by the Media Foundation framework[/quote]

I don’t find that to be the case on my end as I have disabled Media Foundation on my system.

-Josh

[babgvant]

[quote=umdivx]

I don’t find that to be the case on my end as I have disabled Media Foundation on my system.

[/quote]

How did you disable MF?

[umdivx]

[quote=babgvant]

[quote=umdivx]

I don’t find that to be the case on my end as I have disabled Media Foundation on my system.

[/quote]

How did you disable MF?

[/quote]

Win7DSFilterTweaker

[Author]

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